Curse

ElderAtronach · Aug 01, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13

/agree with Thom

Teams that run multiple spiriters are crippling their offense. They may outlast ele-heavy (spike) builds, but that's what spirit spam was supposed to do, right? Even if multiple people bring just NR as their one spirit, to strip enchants and hexes, they are wasting 1/8 of their offensive capability right there, per person that brings it. Like I've said earlier, smite teams are still effective even with NR. Zealot's might get removed, but Balth's aura has a short recharge and lasts 10 seconds, enough of a window to do serious damage between NR drops. E/Mo smiters are getting more and more popular now, I'm seeing them everywhere. The good ones bring Energizing Wind to combat Quickening Zephyr, which gives their E/Mos lasting power.

As far as meteors are concerned, yes you can continously meteor them, especially if they're trying to defend an altar. It won't matter that they have 115 armor vs fire, because you just want the knockdowns to disrupt them. Whirling defense won't stop meteors, I'm sorry to say. Arcane Echo'd, Glyph of Energy'd meteor showers are devastating. Earthquake is, as well, although meteor shower is much more popular.

NR has done a lot of things to the metagame, true. Spirits have rendered air spikes worthless against ranger teams, which destroyed the previous FotM and stopped it dead in its tracks. Now I think the trend will be more toward fire and smiting, although in the long run we may see more balanced teams having an advantage over one-trick ponies like the air spike build or even the spirit build now. Which IMO, is a good thing. Of course there will always be the surprise (nobody suspects the Spanish Inquisition!) builds which may replace the current FotM, then someone will find a counter to that, and so on...

roboky · Aug 01, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropius

There is lots of perfectly serviceable enchantment/hex hate in the game already. If my count is right:

Shatter Hex
Inspired Hex
Shatter Enchantment
Inspired Enchantment
Convert Hexes
Smite Hex
Remove Hex
Drain Enchantment
Strip Enchantment
Rend Enchantments
Desecrate Enchantment
Well of the Profane
Lingering Curse
Soul Barbs
Melandru's Arrows
Chilblains
Dwayna's Kiss
Holy Veil
Purge Signet
Contemplation of Purity
Hex Breaker

Nature's Renewal makes all of these skills obsolete.

How does it make them obsolete? I don't think a mesmer or necromancer class would use nature's renewal, because they have these skills and it would adversely affect their hexes. The ones who would need nature's renewal to remove hexes/enchants would be the W/R or R/W.

bobrath · Aug 01, 2005, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Wouldn't the earlier FOTM - minion mastering (ie massive fiend creation) do really well against a NR spamming team?

rii · Aug 01, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

I didnt say you couldnt do it, i meant that you would only be able to keep it up long enough to really make it count.

ElderAtronach · Aug 01, 2005, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

Wouldn't the earlier FOTM - minion mastering (ie massive fiend creation) do really well against a NR spamming team?

How is that? Spirits don't leave bodies when they die. And spirit spammers usually have fertile season to make sure people don't die as fast. Minion masters = fairly obsolete. Good teams use corpses for putrids, not minions. The only time minion masters would be effective is in burial mounds, the 6-team area, where they'd have plenty of bodies to work with when a team has died off. Using only bone fiends, and favorable winds and whatever else useful spirits they might have, it would work.

But on any other map, it's just not going to be effective to keep the minions up and running. On an altar map or relic run, fiends aren't going to help very much, if at all.

twicky_kid · Aug 01, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

there is no real answer for NR. i think it should be nerfed for one reason. GW has done its best to keep the game balanced. i can easily relate this game to Magic: The Gathering. R&D makes a set but doesn't see the bokeness of the cards till the players get ahold of them.

i think the same thing has happened here. they made a really good spell but the players are better than the devs at figuring out strat (its a mathmaticaly thing x amount of devs testing hours for balance while players x is 100x more than the devs)

it should be nerfed because it warps the metagame. you either play with it or play against it.

to keep it balanced they should lower the life of the spirit making it easier to kill but then you'll have protection monks slapping pro spirit or bond on it. so i really don't know answer for making it balanced.

rii · Aug 01, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

How is that? Spirits don't leave bodies when they die. And spirit spammers usually have fertile season to make sure people don't die as fast. Minion masters = fairly obsolete. Good teams use corpses for putrids, not minions. The only time minion masters would be effective is in burial mounds, the 6-team area, where they'd have plenty of bodies to work with when a team has died off. Using only bone fiends, and favorable winds and whatever else useful spirits they might have, it would work.

But on any other map, it's just not going to be effective to keep the minions up and running. On an altar map or relic run, fiends aren't going to help very much, if at all.

minion masters are completely obselete due to frozen soil.

ElderAtronach · Aug 01, 2005, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

minion masters are completely obselete due to frozen soil.

Erm... frozen soil doesn't affect raising of minions. It only prevents resurrection of dead teammates. No idea where you got that one from.

bobrath · Aug 01, 2005, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

How is that? Spirits don't leave bodies when they die. And spirit spammers usually have fertile season to make sure people don't die as fast. Minion masters = fairly obsolete. Good teams use corpses for putrids, not minions. The only time minion masters would be effective is in burial mounds, the 6-team area, where they'd have plenty of bodies to work with when a team has died off. Using only bone fiends, and favorable winds and whatever else useful spirits they might have, it would work.

But on any other map, it's just not going to be effective to keep the minions up and running. On an altar map or relic run, fiends aren't going to help very much, if at all.

I'm talking about the team that utilizes their own bodies in the pre-game to create massive minion counts. Not relying on spirits bodies.

I'm just thinking that a build centered around overly large number of minions utilizes almost no hexes or enchantments and can easily overwhelm a spirit spammer. Remember that Fertile Season works both ways making the minions/fiends last longer as well.

ElderAtronach · Aug 01, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Can you explain to me how that works? I have considered it a cheat and still do, actually. Shouldn't their dying to create corpses make them have horrific DP? I've only actually ran into the minions-pre-starting team once, and that was in 4v4. I've never seen them in tombs.

rii · Aug 01, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Erm... frozen soil doesn't affect raising of minions. It only prevents resurrection of dead teammates. No idea where you got that one from.

Minion build involve killing yourself, raising a minion, then being fast cast ressed, to kill yourself again. Frozen soil shafts you on the third point. So yes, it does.

bobrath · Aug 01, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Lulu the monk used it and here are some details:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=23199
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=23199
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=24131

Yes, one or two folks get massive DP but doesn't really matter since the fiends are able to overwhelm the opposing team/runner.

Sure there are obvious counters (EoE being a fun one), but I'm just looking at it from a counter to the NR spirit spam.

MSecorsky · Aug 01, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

so your gonna continuously meteor them? ja, im sorry to say thats not gonna work. And dont say youll kill em with it, since they have 115al against meteors at choice..... the best way to beat nr is to build around it.

No, you're right... I just enjoy the mental image. Although it can reduce their spirit spam capability somewhat.

JoDiamonds · Aug 01, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropius

The game should be balanced in a way that encourages strategic diversity, not discourages it. There are around 140 enchantments and hexes in the Guild Wars skillset, and you propose that we just don't use them?

You are mostly correct, but there are larger issues here. As far as I can tell, Arena really is encouraging metagames. If playing without enchantments or hexes becomes popular, then NR teams will be useless. At the point, the enchantless-hexless team becomes a ripe target for teams which DO use them, because they obviously gain an enormous advantage by having access to those skills. These are the methods by which metagames move around and rotate.

As someone mentioned (condescendingly, perhaps), NR is popular against Air Spikers. Air Spikers came about after the Warrior-heavy teams were popular. Presumably the metagame will continue to evolve.

What some people like and want is a metagame and balance such that mixed, reactive strategies are the best, but it's far from clear that such a balance is right or fun for everyone. The easy analogy is Magic: The Gathering. Some decks are focused speed decks, determined to win quickly, and if they can't, they just lose. (See: weenie decks; some Air Spiker teams.) Other's are slow and controlling, preventing the enemy from playing their game one way or the other. (Land destruction, counterspells; NRs, mesmer heavy teams.) There are combo decks, which either try to win outright with a combo or just totally lock up the game. (Life, Tendrils, etc.; Healing Ball.) But it's also possible to take a more midranged approach, hoping to deal with whatever strategy the other guy has and using a variety of attacks. (The Rock; nearly any pickup group ;-)

In short, unless the metagame stagnates heavily for a lengthy period of time (let's say at least a month, and > 60% of all teams using the same build), then it seems perfectly healthy to me. It's ok if the currently best build isn't a reactive build. Just because it's hard to play enchantments and hexes this week doesn't mean it will be next week.

Part of the skill of players involves figuring out how to beat what's currently popular. That's supposed to be a challenge. If the goal today is to figure out how to get by without hexes and enchantments, I welcome the challenge. Keeps things spiced up, and interested. As long as things don't stay the same, I'm happy.

bobrath · Aug 01, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

^^^ Wow. Stated very nicely and really makes me even happier to be involved in playing GW.

ICURADik · Aug 01, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Did you guys happen to think of Healing Seed+Warrior run out in front? Add in a little AoE damage, and it's over.

rii · Aug 01, 2005, 10:30 PM // 22:30

healing seed what? itd get stripped. wha?

Darkrouge101 · Aug 02, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Or the devs could just throw in an Anti-spirit spirit. Like it lengthens the casting time of spirits, or prevents their effects from working for 30 seconds, etc. Too bad no devs look at this forum though :-P

rii · Aug 02, 2005, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Or reinstate unnatural signet and bloody fix it. Possible fix: the recharge increases as does the number of spirits cast by foes. Abusable, but something.

The Ages · Aug 02, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

You are mostly correct, but there are larger issues here. As far as I can tell, Arena really is encouraging metagames. If playing without enchantments or hexes becomes popular, then NR teams will be useless. At the point, the enchantless-hexless team becomes a ripe target for teams which DO use them, because they obviously gain an enormous advantage by having access to those skills. These are the methods by which metagames move around and rotate.

The problem is, The Enchantless Teams you mention more than oftain also Run NR, All it takes is one player on the team to make a NR Spammer to Disable all Chances of a Enchantment team from working. The Meta Game is stoped because 1 Person can Disable the team, Unlike other builds where its whole a teams Effort to counter. This one NR Spammer can Dictate what can and will work against them, Because of that the other players on the team can focus on Patching up what NR Does not cover. (What is not that much)